we're on a mission from god

wendy so i got that going darling

looks like i picked the wrong way to

quit sniffing blue light

of my life we enjoy your films

[Music]

welcome to vintage video where we'll be

reviewing every major film release of

the 1980s in real time i'm patrick

o'reilly

i'm jesse bayless and i'm richard wells

and today marks the 40th anniversary of

the release of cruising

on february 15 1980. it was adapted from

a book by gerald walker

written and directed by william friedkin

and released by united artists

on the same day in america as caligula

seems like you're crossing over with

your audience we're just getting the c's

done here

interesting choice uh i i i want to say

a couple of things

right off the bat yes uh we are

we watched or hold on let me preface

that even with

this is a second consecutive episode

where you might want to be careful about

who's listening to the

podcast again we won't be using any

terminology that you can't say on

television

but this is a very adult-oriented film

uh we are watching the altered version

of this film

okay i noticed something was off right

away because it was the

updated warner brothers logo right and

it was it's probably the

cleanest picture quality we've had of

anything we've watched so far um

but uh it didn't have the opening

statement

about this doesn't depict uh

is this isn't meant to depict the whole

of the

homosexual community it's just supposed

to show a portion of it there was a

disclaimer that was supposed to be at

the beginning and that was removed

for this version okay uh but uh

but this is also part of a trend that

i've noticed when i'm watching some

blu-rays

that they don't show the original

production logo that accompanied the

film before

they show the more recently the newest

logo yeah and i think that that's weird

because some of the

logos are cool and vintage it's also why

a lot of people honestly were more

excited about

having a new hope with the fox fanfare

in front of it yeah

than they were about like disney getting

marvel or any of that other stuff like

getting the

fantastic four and x-men back they were

just like oh now we can watch

episode four with the fox fanfare at the

front of it and it's like

yeah you know there's something to be

said for for

the the time accurate opening logos for

these movies

and it's funny because a lot of time

you'll have like a house with a clock in

its walls

um that uh that eli roth just did

like he got the oldest possible amblin

logo

to put in front of it because he liked

the retro feel of it so it's just funny

going the other direction too

because this movie opens up with with

warner brothers logo with

audio from the movie over the logo right

and i and i

wasn't able to find out if that's how

the original was like yeah

i don't know i didn't even realize this

was an uh altered version yeah was it

altered in any other way

apparently there's more a little bit

more footage because they

he had to go back and the friedkin had

to go to the npa

time after time after time after time

trying to get this movie reduced

now it's not the full cut that 40

minutes were cut

a lot of it was lost um but this does

have some additional scenes

uh but not i think it's only it's a

matter of minutes right

uh but i wondered

because having the film audio over the

production logo

seems like a choice but it feels like a

very modern choice

yeah i don't i can't think of too many

movies

before a certain time that would do that

uh like like those the first thing i

could think of like the burbs

where it played the score of the

universal logo only because the

universal logo was part of the opening

sequence right

uh well yeah i was gonna i was gonna say

because the

indiana jones movies all did that but

then again they made the logo part of

their opening sequence correct

most literally in the last installment

where the

mountains literally turn into a molehill

uh

but the next thing i wanted to say i

went into this movie completely blind i

had no idea what it was about either

no idea so cruising we opened up with a

boat i was like okay so this is about

boats this is like cruising on boats

captain wrong

kind of cruising and then it just

immediately comes to a dismembered

arm floating in the water i was like oh

my yeah what is this movie and i know it

was based on a true story so i was like

that that's basically all i knew is that

it was a reporter had written a story

that was adapted into a novel

that was adapted into this film and this

was not what i expected this movie to be

about yeah

um apparently de niro and roy scheider

both turned down

the the role of steve the main character

and then and i was watching this film

thinking about roy shatter

because of sorcerer uh because sorcerer

was really great and scheider was great

and freaking

you know did a safe job with that film

yeah and so i'm thinking man one of

these characters must have been meant

for roy scheider

one of them must have been and it was

the main character the al pacino role

the director's first choice was actually

richard gere yeah that which is crazy

because it would have come out

less than a month after american gigolo

i wonder if he like i mean

apparently he was interested like really

interesting he was attached

he was attached he was attached when al

pacino got the script for the movie

and was like i'm really interested in

doing this movie and they were like well

richard gere

is not huge and you're coming off of

godfather one and two so

come on in and play this character i

wonder if richard gere would have been

more

typecast than because of the you know

two

you know extremely homosexual roles in

the same year

in the same like month practically well

i wouldn't imagine he probably would not

have done the other then

he would have he wouldn't have tried it

on the other one yeah well because this

would have because

john travolta would have picked it back

up and done american jiggalong

i think this would have been filming

earlier than american gigolo

because well and our last movie caligula

both started in like 76 yeah yeah so

they

they came out way after they were shot

so i imagine that american gigolo

actually

shot after he lost this role okay that

makes sense then

so maybe he maybe after losing their

stroll he was like you know it's kind of

like that

american gigolo um something that uh

i don't know if i should save this bit

of trivia for after we discuss the plot

of the movie but there's some insane

trivia

okay uh i'm looking forward to that you

know what i'm just gonna say it right

now because it's not too much of a

spoiler

um but uh so in the movie the exorcist

also directed by william friedkin um

there's a there's a scene at a

radiologist's lab

where they're doing scans of this girl's

brain who's supposed to be

uh possessed by a demon and the

person playing the radiologist's

assistant is an actor named

paul bateson so when william friedkin

was gearing up to make this film

he learned that bateson was awaiting

trial for the post-coital murder

of a gay film critic addison verrell

so he decided you're not in jail i can

speak with you i want to talk to you

about this because it's similar to

what's happening in my movie and um

i just want to get an a feel for like

your psyche and

what went into what happened and

everything so he meets with him

um and he gets he gets some thoughts for

the movie and he leaves and he makes the

movie

bateson was later sentenced to life in

prison but not before

dropping several hints while in custody

that he was the actual bodybag killer

that the novel and film cruising were

based on

huh the director was convinced to do

this film

because he actually ended up meeting the

killer

no he that was unrelated that happened

after the movie

that he was sent to prison so he thought

he was just talking to another murderer

to get an idea of

the mentality but he was actually

talking to

the murderer who was never caught for

the crimes that his movie was about

that's crazy who was also in another

movie he did who was also in the

exorcist

as an actor that's so weird yeah wow

but that's just an insane coincidence

that he cast

a murderer and then later on wanted to

make that murderer story and didn't know

that it was someone who had already

worked with

al pacino playing uh

the main character in this movie steve

burns who

uh in real life was 20 years old like a

rookie cop

how old would you guess al pacino was

when he made this movie

39. wow that's startlingly close he was

he was exactly 39 new york

he did he doesn't look 39 to me but wow

he was 39 already in 1980 so he's like

80 now almost yeah yeah

but um but obviously he was

um a little bit better looking in uh in

the

godfather movies than in this one that

was slightly four or five years earlier

yes um spielberg was briefly attached

i imagine that was very very briefly

um every studio said no but i mean this

was released by united artists and now

it has a warner brothers logo at the

front of it

so eventually some studios came on board

but

uh he left to do a movie called jaws

which nobody remembers didn't work out

for him

brian de palma was desperate to adapt

this movie to a film

i could have seen that yeah but because

this all fell in william friedkin's lap

he was forced to make dress to kill

which is probably one of his better

remember

yeah i really like that and he had his

chance to work with uh al pacino later

when he did scarface friedkin

says that he attended several gay bars

dressed in only a jock strap to immerse

himself in the culture

preparing for the film well apparently

the actors did too yeah they were he

wasn't the only one and he encouraged

everyone to to do that

and yeah so a bunch of them all i mean

on their own they did their research

but after the film was released uh

freaking was banned from several gay

bars

which at that point like unless he's

gonna make another movie about gay

culture why

why would he be going back to your gay

bar i mean there was a lot of

general protests right from the gay

community related to this

movie is that standing like is that

still is he still banished

i don't know you'd have to ask the the

ramrod

or the man pit or whatever i don't know

what they were called well

the cockpit that was one yeah the

cockpit yeah the ramrod

or it was either ramrod or arm rod but

either way

no it was definitely rambling

i wrote it down uh there were lots of

protests obviously when the movie came

out

because of the way it portrays gay

culture but also uh a crazy guy shot

eight people at the ramrod club

after this movie came out oh yeah he

blamed it on this movie yeah

he knew um when he was submitting the

film

to the mpaa uh free concluded 40 extra

minutes like we said which

have been lost to time but james franco

later made a movie called

interior leather bar which was a

docu-fiction that reimagined some of the

missing footage

and also dealt with a lot of the

creative and ethical problems that come

from the film's subject matter

well and supposedly all of that 40

minutes was really just more

just the graphic scenes like in the bars

right

but you know in theory it made it both

more

and less ambiguous because it kind of

helps you know show al pacino's like

transition during this film right you

know whatever that may be

it's a little it's a little unclear at

the end yeah they leave a lot too

to the viewer um

but yeah it's a it's a pretty standard

director trick to

put a lot more extreme footage into the

movie that you never intended to use so

that you have something to take out when

the mpaa says

this is rated x and then you go what

about if i took

a third of the movie out and then

they're like okay that's r then

or you could do uh the strategy on a

film that i worked on once was

make your pa cut together scenes from

films that you think

oh show stuff that's violent show stuff

that's more violent than what's in your

movie and then submit that to the mpaa

and say how does this get a pg-13 but

you gave me an r

was that max payne that was max they

should have gone for an r

anyway that should have been good we

just had to color re-color time the

blood and then people were pretty good

with it that's

it was silly i feel like you're you're

actually hurting your box office with

that kind of a title if you're not going

for r but then what do i know hitman

probably made nothing i think that had

an r

i don't know how much max payne

could have been good real good i really

wanted it to be good and instead

it wasn't great oh i

never actually saw it you didn't watch

them though

that's your first credit though right

yeah that was my first screen credit

yeah

i mean it's not my first film that i

worked on but it was the first screen

credit

um so we start the movie with like you

said a boat yeah

in the hudson river and they find a hand

um

um then do we go to the morgue yeah we

go to the morgue

paul sorvino right is there trying to oh

no it's not paul sergeant yet

it's another one of the other detectives

uh

who says like oh we can't do anything

with just the hand he's like we can give

you a thing he's like i can get you a

fingerprint i got the hand and he's like

yeah the fingerprint doesn't do me any

good because it's just gonna open a

homicide investigation then i have to

find the whole body so

yeah forget it just put it in your

miscellaneous drawer

so fun fact it's a real morgue

what were those real body parts i don't

know i don't think it was real body

parts but apparently

uh that was a real morgue in new york

and

uh everyone was 100 sure that that was

never going to happen and they finally

convinced the

the head of the new york city morgue to

let them film

in the morgue interesting yeah why

wouldn't

you let someone film an org i mean

you're going to make them build a whole

morgue

like i feel like so many movies shooting

real morgues that's probably true now

but

i mean yeah maybe this is early in that

70s you don't have to open up any other

drawers

you go go when there's not so many dead

bodies but they did open the drawer

and they pulled a big slab out that was

just different parts

different body parts and he closed it i

forget what the

label said i just remembered that the

acronym spelled cuppy yeah but i was

like oh this is going to come into play

because this insert shot is

really lingering but no it's just like

nope that's just where

miscellaneous arms and legs go

um but yeah so uh we

moved from there to uh

i think first we have the shot with the

two

uh transvestite hookers that are working

on the street and the police are abusing

them yeah is it i always forget is it

martin's or mike starr

it's mike stark mike sorry i i always

confuse those martian star

is like the guy from spider-man

yeah that's what you go to first

spider-man

spider-man i was gonna go freaks and

geeks never heard of that but he's in

spider-man

also um i've heard of freaks and cakes

but uh mike starr i always think of as

uh the gas man yeah

how the hell do they know that i got gas

how the hell did they know that i got

gas

[Laughter]

uh yeah so they're harassing these two

um

and apparently coerced them into

sexual acts yeah so they just basically

yeah they just pull over on the side of

the road and

force these two into sex acts i hate

gay people now i'm going to come gay on

me

please so so this was actually based on

something

real that was happening at the time as

well

i'm sure so there was these two guys

that um

were essentially i i don't know about

the sexual acts but they were shaking

down

uh you know people in the gate community

i guess

hookers and others uh you know making

them like taking them to atms and

basically like holding them

up and making them clear out their bank

accounts and even making them like

at certain certain times like call their

parents and make their parents like get

the money and

uh but they got caught and uh and they

went to trial and it turns out they

weren't actually cops

so oh okay yeah which is a good thing

that they weren't actually cops well

that's funny because that's something a

line that's brought up yeah later

is that you sir are you sure they were

cops yeah

right um so we moved from that happening

to

footage inside of a lot of these gay

clubs it's a mix of

the eagles nest the ramrod and the

cockpit um

where this guy looking very freddie

mercury

with his with his biker hat and his

aviator sunglasses

um it's just like eyeing people from

across the room

and lures someone up to a hotel room and

uh

then after they have sex he ties the guy

up

on his back and stabs him four or five

times in the back

and then we cut immediately to the

morgue again and this time we have

uh paul sorvino is there um and the

corner is yeah the coroner is like

talking him through like

well the first one you can see it's a

very straight line so what the victim

wasn't expecting it

and then everything below is defensive

wounds because they're not straight

cuts anymore and it's top to bottom so

he's like

he's right-handed yeah but there's a lot

of forensic stuff

yeah they this isn't the only time we're

getting like a forensics

i feel like he was definitely going for

accuracy mm-hmm um

they had freaky so they had a consultant

like i'm sure they had a

like a new you know nypd consultant on

for this film and a lot of this stuff

came from reality

that's interesting now i'm i'm concerned

that i miss him and i

i texted pat he's like i need to watch

this again because i feel like i missed

some things

and it turns out i didn't um but

and i'm worried i did that is his limp

ever explained

no and i was like is this his choice is

the olympia's choice

paul sorvino has always had a limp i'm

looking at you very curious

i can do it i just had to wait two more

seconds it's not real

it's not a truth and so it was like

because it's never brought up

and and he it's consistent like it's

yeah it's happening from the beginning

um and i was like i wonder if this is

just paul sorvino's choice mira sorvino

has the same thing

on the other side she inherited it so uh

he's uh paul cerveno ends up going back

to the police station and that's where

one of the the transvestite prostitutes

that was

accosted goes to him and says hey i got

some information on that guy for you the

one you're looking for

right um he was at this club in this

club

and i also wanted to let you know that

there are a couple cops out there that

are harassing us

and you're gonna do something about it

they're out of precinct whatever

precinct nine or six or whatever also i

hear the word precinct more than i've

ever heard in my life

one of the names of the bars yeah yeah

but

um and that's when servino says oh are

you sure they were cops and it's like

well they were in a police car and it's

like

are you sure they were cops and it turns

out by the end of the movie we learned

they they were cops

but um which i think is an interesting

choice considering

in reality they turn out not to be cops

which i think is obviously

you know better for the cops but blue

lives matter

in this uh you know in this movie they

chose to

to make them cops which i think is an

interesting choice to turn it

around like that that is interesting um

i love that the weird little character

choice also of paul servino trying to

teach himself how to play chess

oh yeah and so he's got like the the

gridded chess

board out and he makes a move and he

types it into the computer and the

computer just says illegal move and he's

like

damn it he like doesn't even know how

she'll play it right

he's not even bad at it he just

literally can't even remember how you're

allowed to move the pieces

son of a [ __ ] but yeah then al pacino

enters

15 minutes into the movie our main

character shows up well i didn't realize

that at first

yeah that's true you were losing track

because everyone looks the same

all the guys in the bar look the same

the guy he took home looked the same

they're all these like dark-haired you

know

white men that just all look identical

well

interesting factoid for you um you

weren't just being gays

it turns out that the killer in the

first scene

plays the second victim ah i was gonna

tell you that they're the same actor i

know

because you were like now hold on a

second can you back that up because

that's the guy who killed in the first

scene

and now he's being killed is there a

second killer and i was like no

these guys just all look the same no for

no reason they used the same actor

to play the second victim that played

the first kill that's called a red

herring patrick

no the guy is already dead red herring

what makes it a red herring i

think you're using this tournament

properly because

it's just so ridiculous it doesn't make

any sense at all to do that

why he can't be the real killer because

he died

no no no no the implications oh yeah no

the killer from the first scene

is killed in the second season

but then continues to kill the movie

so are you saying that he like somehow

pantomimed stabbing himself to death for

the benefit of just the camera and the

perfect crime but then also in the show

anytime he showed up after that we would

be like

oh that's the dead guy that doesn't make

any sense police can't find a dead

guy oh that's true double jeopardy but

additionally the

peep show murder yeah the guy that gets

killed in the peep show murder was the

victim from the first scene

what yeah why do you keep doing this to

us

what's happening in this movie but

anyway

steve burns al pacino shows up and paul

cervino says

hey are you gay you like dudes and he's

like what no i'm sorry you were missing

for him so i have to get back to work do

you like butt stuff what

stop asking me stop

he says you're going undercover um

i'm gonna send you all these clubs and

you're gonna find this guy who's been

stabbing gay people because you look

like all of his victims right and he's

he's essentially like promising him you

know

he's like hey you'll be you're gonna get

your badge much faster this way

and i would if if i were him i would

have been like i'm

20. i can hang out for five years and

not get stabbed in the back so

i'm good but i have a feeling that even

paul sorvino had

had an inkling that this guy might have

some homosexual tendencies already well

and see that's why i thought this was

going i thought

oh everyone knows that steve burns

is the gay guy in the police force no

one talks about it don't ask don't tell

kind of thing

but that's why he's perfect for this

mission but in actuality he's like

so fresh on the job that no one else

knows him at all yeah and and he's

married

to karen allen is he married no they're

not married well

well they're in a relationship yeah he

lives with him yeah

um but yeah i thought he took off a ring

maybe they're not i don't think they i

don't recall them being married i don't

remember i don't remember the wrang

thing

that might change my answer to that

question but i don't remember but so he

goes to a couple clubs

to try and get a feel for it and it

looks like you know some scenes out of

caligula a little bit yeah yeah

in places and he meets power's booth

power spoof

he uh he goes into a club and he looks

around and he sees these people have

like these handkerchiefs

hanging out of their pockets and he's

like okay this means something so he

goes to this like

little hanky shop next door and not just

a

hanky shot well i mean though he is way

he's open at this hour

he's credited as a hanky salesman yeah

and uh

he's like oh this one this color means

this this color means this light blue

hank in your left back pocket means you

want a blow job

right pocket means you give one the

green one left side says you're a

hustler right side you're a buyer

yellow one left side means you give

golden shower right side you receive

the red one please thank you see

anything you want

uh i'm gonna i'm gonna go home think

about it

i'm sure you'll make the right choice

it's basically like the

the the whole myth about what scrunchies

mean when kids come home with them on

their arms now

in in high school or whatever but he's

like if you tuck this one in your back

pocket it means you're cool to do this

or you want this or you want to do this

to somebody else and so he's like all

right well

give me that one and he goes back into

the club with one hanging out of his

pocket that guy's like

oh are you down with this and he's like

no and he's like get that hanky out of

your pocket

yeah well in that particular scene

though he's like no no i'm gonna go home

and think about it but but later he does

show

up with a yellow hanky right

which means that he has a cold

so uh to fit into the community he rents

like the super cheap apartment which was

actually previously inhabited by

one of the murder victims right

and and all the magazines he's like

i thought the magazines were there were

planted there by cover

well not just the cover i thought paul

sorvino was like saying hey we got you

this place

and i have these lying around well no

like here's some no there's some

material

here's what they're you're saying

fashion do some research

these are magazines that are going to be

informative because you have

no supposedly have no knowledge of this

culture

uh and he immediately meets his neighbor

who's wow friendly yeah and he's like

throwing away just like

10 pounds worth of of gay porno mags

which is hilarious because he was going

to throw them away but the neighbor says

oh no no

no no don't throw them away our land

lady

likes to sell them so just stack them up

here nicely

so this you know i'm just imagining this

little landlady out there selling a load

of used gay porn makers i also feel like

if i was a landlady that sold

used gay porn mags i would probably

check the apartment for them before i

rented it to somebody else but she's

she's a little old lady

oh she's not tall enough to see them at

the top of the scene they were on the

top of the closet

but yeah so he he makes friends with uh

this guy

ted bailey who um his new neighbor who

it turns out is like

he's writing a screenplay about his own

experience in the city

and he doesn't care that it's not going

to sell to anybody because no one makes

those kind of stories that he wants to

tell because he just

he believes in himself and he believes

in his writing well and i think that

this character

is really designed to be sort of the

antithesis of the whole rest of the

movie and

you know and it's his attempt to be like

hey look we have

we have we have a gay you know we have

gay culture that's also

not all of these things that's just a

normal before the movie was even

done shooting there was already protests

going right as soon as they knew that

the move

that the book was being adapted they

were already like that's not a fair

representation of our culture and

every time someone makes a movie about

gay culture

it turns into american gigolo and it's

you know a crazy murderer even if the

whole time

the point of the movie is supposed to be

oh he's an innocent guy and then at the

end he murders somebody

on his way to proving his innocence but

yeah so he

sits down and has uh some coffee with

this

with the neighbor and they talk about

his boyfriend and how he's his boyfriend

is not very supportive

um and that he's overbearing

um but uh then we're back

in the nightclub scene and uh steve

actually uh gets someone to take him to

his apartment after they leave the club

um

but he sort of does he give some

indication to the police that

they should be following him what is the

clue

that sends all the cops rushing into the

apartment yeah

well he he has a guy that he's he's

tracking this guy named skip

yeah skip league simply he he's like a

guy who's like

he's quick to anger uh even one of the

because he

uh al pacino checks in with paul sorvino

now and then saying

you know hey the the the bartenders

starting to know me

they're giving me information i'm

talking to some of the guys i see

locally

uh and the bartender says yeah that

skippy guy skip

is crazy yeah don't mess with it don't

mess around he'll he's he's just

he's not a good guy yeah uh so he's like

okay

this guy fits a profile yeah so let me

push him a little and gets him to take

him up to his room

and he's wearing a wire but you know's

wearing a wire

but he gets completely undressed correct

so now they have no audio

and and the last thing they heard up

that he was being tied up right which

one of the victims

was completely hog type before he was

stabbed in the back correct so they go

well we're gonna

we're gonna rush in but so many of the

scenes in this movie are these really

long drawn out scenes yeah

where all i need to see is them rush in

the front door

and then be at the apartment door i

don't need to see them all

take turns going out of the [ __ ] yeah

working up the

then getting to the door all kind of

gathering around the door

then one of them has to tell the other

one to be quiet it was like

wouldn't you notice this is adding to

the story

just cut directly to them busting in uh

and then they get you know they just

lightly knock on the door

and i'm assuming they're about you know

al pacino and skipper about to have sex

he goes i'll go get the door i'd be like

yeah screw who was ever at the door i'm

busy

i'd just be like yeah like i would just

not answer the door

uh what could be more important which

wouldn't have changed this scene at all

yeah because if nobody answered the door

they would have busted it open yeah

and arrested the people the same way but

both of them

are playing it straight like i don't

know who these people are what are they

why are you in my place

yeah and he's like why are you

interrupting us you don't know what's

going on

but al pacino is completely naked on the

bed hog

and they both seem totally confused by

it cut to them both being interrogated

in the same room

yeah at a table and they're both saying

like

we already told you what happened why

are you why are you questioning us

over and over again on the same points

because they followed skip

to his job at a fancy restaurant right

that gives out a very particular

steak knife right and the

which could cut through bone conceivably

yeah and

uh also is very similar to the murder

weapon the

again the forensics analysis guy it's

holding up with the blade this is the

serrations match he holds it up to an

x-ray right

uh and so they're really pushing skip

and then they this guy walks in

the six foot five guy with no clothes

he's just wearing a jock strap and a

cowboy hat you mean my most favorite

character of the film yeah

so fun fact that's a real

that's a real cop who literally did that

professionally during interrogation

based on reality yeah but it's just so

it wasn't just based on reality that was

the guy who literally did that during

interrogation oh dear and the point was

that

um if they were too rough with people

being interrogated

they couldn't file a complaint and say

oh yeah they

you know they were shouting at me and

then the six foot five naked cowboy

slapped me across the face

people be like okay well whatever that

doesn't make any sense so that obviously

didn't happen

but i love the reaction it's like first

albuquerque

who's that guy who hit me why hit me

and then when skipping like who is that

guy

he just keeps slapping them around back

and forth and the way he slaps him it's

so

like it's a hard slap it's a hard slap

but it's also like

got this like robotic kind of like i

know you can't see what i'm doing but

it's kind of like

yeah it just backhands him but like a

robot but the drum

the drama in the slap is so intense

it's it's you know what it's the

intensity that you can only get if

you're not an actor and you're trying

to act to act like really dramatically

slapping

so you'll hold on the slap after you do

it and then once both of them have

gotten

slapped they decide okay we're going to

start interviewing these guys separately

and that's when pacino can finally break

character

and he goes into they bring him into the

room with the guy who slapped him he's

like

and you slam me really hard and the guy

just looks at him and doesn't say

anything

and so he takes his hat off and throws

it i love that he just throws the head

out the window but the guy doesn't move

or react to it at all he doesn't say

anything yeah but uh the captain

or the police chief comes in

just to kind of observe and

they're they're seeing how hard they're

pressing this kid and he's not giving up

anything right

and that they're just like nah this is

and then they they check the the

fingerprints and they're like

it's not the right guy yeah because they

because one of the people that he killed

he he um went to like a porno theater

and put a coin in to play a porno

and then while the movie was playing he

stabbed a guy to death

in the theater and they found the coin

that went into the machine and it had

blood smeared on it with a fingerprint

right because he want to match those

guys you wanted the room to seem like

it's still occupied so he can

have more time to get away right um

and we also haven't really touched on it

much but uh

his wife slash girlfriend uh pacino's

wife slash girlfriend his girlfriend i'm

sorry i was i was mistaken with the wife

it is girlfriend yeah uh is played by

karen allen

and she uh is just kind of oblivious the

whole time apparently a lot of her

performance ended up on the cutting room

floor for this movie

but um he's he's been really distant

with her

and uh i think he's having intimacy

issues because

it's it i mean at this point i can i

guess we can say that he's

having conflicts right well he says he

says you know because she

she's like you're not interested in me

anymore and he's like well what i'm

doing is affecting me

so it's not really like clear when he

says that it's just like

oh are you just like but he also says

there's there's a lot of stuff you don't

know about me

like there's information but like it's

not it's not clear and if that means

like he's feeling

like he's having homosexual feelings or

if he's instead

like just being really disturbed by

sexuality like in general by the things

that he's seeing and you can't handle

this intimacy right now they leave it a

lot for the viewer to decide for

themselves

a lot for the viewer to decide

especially the ending

but uh yeah my my interpretation

was that he has either been bisexual or

gay the entire time

and is realizing more of this about

himself or is finally leaning into

this proclivity that he's had well i

think that some of the

some of the footage that was taken out

probably would have given us more

clues into what he was experiencing at

these clubs and like

how that was affecting him yeah but he

goes to

sarvino and says hey uh i'm not trying

to get people killed just for being gay

so i'm done with this whole thing and

the chief of police has been breathing

down cervino's neck like

the what the mayor is coming to town or

somebody's coming to the democratic

convention oh the democratic convention

is going to be in town he's like

you need to have this whole murder

investigation wrapped up with a nice

little bow before the dnc comes to town

because we're not going to deal with

this on the on the national

stage so handle it because this is a

problem

and so he's desperate and he's like you

gotta help me steve you gotta stay in

this

like we're gonna solve this problem

we're gonna help people you just have to

stick to this yeah um there's

a couple of connections now that are

coming up yeah he gives them one

new piece of information the because the

one of them

uh murder victims was a columbia

professor yeah

presumably the first murder victim yeah

which uh

pacino gets this information from ted

bailey his neighbor

that they think this guy died in a

similar way and that it might be related

and serbino here is giving him oh well

here's

his class list these are the 12 people

that this professor

ever taught yeah like it doesn't make

sense that it's

like four pieces of paper and and one

thing i do like that they did with this

movie is that the killer

is at these clubs throughout the movie

yeah he sees him

often like he's seeing all these other

regulars

and he's seeing the killer we see as the

audience see the killer

so we know that he's there um and i

thought that that was really

cool a cool thing to do well except that

the killer's not always the killer

you know the fact that they keep

switching out these people i mean

i think i feel like if you're gonna lean

into the he's got a hat and glasses and

facial hair on

that that has to be how you're hiding

who the killer is you can't

also change the actor multiple times i i

i agree with you that i don't think it

was done right and it was done clearly

but i think that they were trying

to imply that it wasn't just one killer

like this was this was a thing this was

a problem like

a patrick bateman scenario where it's

like

maybe we're just confused about who is

doing it well or that there's just you

know that there's multiple people that

were committing these types of acts at

that time and they're trying to imply

that it's like yeah so we got one of

them but like

there's other victims to this stuff yeah

but so now he has this list of people's

faces and he's

flipping through it and he and he

recognizes one face it's the one face

that looks like maybe it was

photoshopped onto this page of other

faces

because it's a different contrast level

in the photograph

um but and he finds the name of the

person and he calls

up columbia university and says hey i'm

looking for

so and so do you have his contact

information there like well here's his

address

yeah and so he's like okay great i'll

just go to his house so he waits outside

his house until he leaves

and then breaks into the apartment

also real i mean the

so the the consultant apparently said

well this one time i had to break into

this guy's apartment and you know what i

did

i climbed up the fire escape and then

pushed the fan yeah and then just

you know broke into the window and like

i'm a cop so

like if anybody were to find me doing

any of these things i'd just be like

i'm a cop like it's okay i'm supposed to

be doing this

but it's not okay but he gets into this

apartment and

is looking through everything and he

finds this box of letters at the bottom

of the closet

and they're all letters to to his father

at a bunch of different addresses

um that were never sent right just

letters that never got sent to anybody

because they're

here in the shoe box um but then this

part's weird

he leaves the apartment he puts the fan

back in place

very carefully but he leaves the letter

strewn about in this box

yeah and just stands behind like a hedge

staring at the window until the guy

comes back and then when a guy comes

back and looks out the window and sees

al pacino al pacino is like

yeah i got you yeah like he's just like

smiling and nodding

it's like if the implication is that

you're luring this guy out to flirt with

him like

why would you do these things on the way

to flirting with him just

go to a club with him later like i don't

understand why you

purposely left this trail for him to

find you and

be able to implicate him and like some

terrible stuff that he's done

uh also uh one of the harassed

uh

prostitutes prostitutes yeah sorry i

couldn't think of the word

that's not a word i use every day but uh

sure usually my my own persona at night

no uh mentions that they heard

singing like a nursery rhyme or like i'm

here

yeah uh and that's another way al pacino

gives himself away

and i don't understand what he's yeah

why he's like blatantly telling him like

i know you're a murderer let's have sex

now because i thought that's strange

i thought maybe that was the goal to egg

not

down to egg iman but to like reveal i

know who you are

you know who i am so maybe he's trying

to literally just trying to avoid having

sex with this person or be

hog tied and he's just like just attack

me please because all i want to do is

kill you because yeah if you attack me

then i know and then this is all over

because

you'll i'll get the upper hand right so

before

the guy actually approaches al pacino he

goes out and sits on a bench

and talks to his dad and his dad's like

well you got to kill him

yeah he's like okay i guess i'll kill

him dad well he doesn't he's not that he

says you know what you have to do

right you know what you have to do

so the implication is pretty clear yeah

i guess but

i don't think like i i don't know like i

don't feel like it's super

clear like the dad's dead right so like

i knew the second he sat down i was like

oh so the ghost of his dad is like

this is the i don't know if it's clear

that his motivation you know is like is

he trying to

he's trying to gain his father's

approval is it because he himself is gay

and his father doesn't approve so he's

like killing

gay people to try to like gain his

father did he kill his father

did he kill his father did his father

abuse him like i don't think it's

clear no on any of those accounts like

well

since they never cop the guy they don't

know the real motivation

so i mean in the true story they never

caught the guy

the movie changes the ending a little

bit but we don't know the actual

killer's motivation

other than he presumably liked killing

or or did they catch the guy as we

stated at the beginning

they caught the guy but not for they

didn't he wasn't charged with the

murders

uh of these murders of the murders and

the murders

anyway so yeah the the

so begins the the cat and mouse um

night night bench cigarette lighting

yeah they both sit on benches wrong next

to each other

and uh and even even try to approach

each other wrong like

when allegheny needs a light he didn't

hop off the bench he stands up

on the bench to walk the length of the

bench and then jumps down

yeah and then he goes and lights his

cigarette

and then they chase each other and he's

like hey you want to go back to my place

and he's like

can't what about your place and he's

like can't do my place either and he's

like

there's a cool tunnel over there let's

go have sex in the tunnel

he's like i don't want to do it in a

tunnel and he's like no that's cool

let's go let's go let's do that

so they go to the tunnel and then quick

drama gra

everybody whips out knives and stuffs

each other well pacino stabs the bad guy

yeah

and then just cut to him in the hospital

i mean

and uh you know they're telling him was

like we we got your fingerprints on the

coin we're gonna indict you

and the kid just says that's all you're

gonna get is an indictment

yeah and i don't know what that means

like i mean other than that he's not

gonna give a confession but it's like

they're gonna get more than an

indictment because

well we have police witness that you

attacked him

you have the murder weapon on you

presumably like

you're not denying any of these crimes

yeah

so apparently in the scene when he's

talking

he's dubbed over with the voice of his

father when he says i didn't kill

anybody

so it's just the father is the father is

talking there

which apparently earlier like i know we

had

multiple there's a lot of killers it's

also the voice of his father so that

even though it wasn't even the same

killer for that scene like they had a

different actor playing the killer

they still dubbed over the voice with

the father's voice

i didn't catch that well i didn't catch

it either i just i

i read this and i'm like well that that

is a whole different implication to

to some of these scenes so could it be

then the scene where the killer gets

killed

is in his mind like it's a surrealistic

that i'm killing myself in some sort of

way

i don't know i mean it definitely seems

like an intentional choice to have

the same actor who's playing the killer

play a victim

yeah and i i feel like you know like

we're

at this point we're really questioning a

lot of reality because the main

character that we've been following this

whole point like it seems like

they're implying like as he has more gay

feelings he goes crazier and crazier

because

it makes a lot of sense why this movie

was protested

of course i mean i don't know that they

realized that at the time

right but we also so we moved from this

hospital room where the the killer has

finally been

uh overtaken to back to the apartment

building

where steve's been staying and uh the

same police that were harassing the

prostitutes in the beginning of the

movie

are moving into this apartment to see oh

we skipped a scene earlier

but um before he goes out one night um

al pacino

stops by to talk to ted and tell me

because he overhears an argument yeah

right but ted's not home but the

boyfriend is there

and i don't know that ted isn't home but

the boyfriend answers right no

ted's definitely not home because yeah

but you know busts into his apartment

oh right here was there that because

he's working at some kind of

brokerage house i think they yeah oh

yeah the boyfriend forced him to get

some sort of job to pay the rent because

he's like it's your turn now buddy

yeah but uh and the the

the boyfriend here is is uh james riemar

who's dexter's dad yeah dexter's dad but

uh

he uh he's uh pushing back on him and

he's like oh sorry because he

stopped by on the wrong night to flirt

with my boyfriend and he's like no no

that's not why i was here

and he's like oh sure it's not and then

he slams the door in his face

and pacino like rages against the door

yeah and then he's like i'm gonna call

the police

and then he realizes like oh that would

actually be really bad if you call the

police

because that would like compromise my

undercover situation

but i'm coming in anyway yeah but so

that now we have the police at the same

apartment

and it turns out ted has been viciously

murdered

and they're blaming it on the james

remark character the boyfriend

they're assuming it's a domestic dispute

um

but the camera lingering on the body

and uh paul cervino's reaction to

wait who did you say live next door john

forbes which is the fake name that

uh steve has been using at this

apartment he's like

wait a minute does that mean that steve

is a murderer now

does it it seems i don't know it seems

like the way he's reacting to it

isn't like a i should ask steve about

this it's more like a

oh god what if what have i done did i

create a monster

um and then we see steve back in the

apartment with his girlfriend which is a

huge

beautiful apartment yeah um for new york

and uh he's he tells her oh yeah i'm i'm

home now

i've lived here and i got my badge and

we're all good i'm done with the

undercover stuff and he's shaving in the

mirror

and she notices that he has the

leather jacket the biker hat and the

glasses which he didn't have previously

i'm assuming he took

these glasses from the closet

oh where he found the letters yeah

and she puts all of it on because she's

just like oh that's weird

it's almost like you know yeah he's

taking this stuff and sort of assuming

killer's identity yeah but uh he's

shaving and looking in the mirror and

looking at himself and then he turns and

looks at her wearing all the stuff that

he took

out of that apartment and then we just

he looks directly into the camera like

at us

yeah and then we see just this wide shot

of him

walking into a gay bar like that night

and that's the end of the movie

i don't know that it's clear that it's

him it's true

once again i feel like they're being

ambiguous oh my god can we mention

something else

earlier in the movie for no reason we

get this

pinhole scope on a guy sitting on it

like it's it's while we're at columbia

university and the camera is like

following people through room

and in case like you weren't looking at

the right character

suddenly all the screen turns black

except for a circle around one guy

sitting on a railing and

i don't even understand what the point

of that was it's like hey look

alpagino's watching this guy yeah yeah

and i know i noticed i watched

we're all watching it but i just like to

be in the editing room for that where

they're like

is it clear that this is al pacino or

what if people think this is just a

random person it's like

what if we just zoom in on them and it's

like ah i can't zoom in

it's just gonna look really grainy if we

zoom in any further and it's like all

right well just

you know uh put an optical on this and

just put a circle around him it's like

put a circle around this is a football

game

like we're looking through a pair of

binoculars no it's a

monocular it's a just a telescope yeah

but uh but yeah so the implication

might be that uh he has inherited the

murderous ways of the gay community

which is

a huge reason why this film was

protested and is probably in bad taste

in general

uh so something that was really

prominent throughout the film

that i found incredibly distracting was

the score the music was really

bizarre the whole time like it felt like

a horror movie score and i know that

it's it's everything that freaking does

it's a suspenseful thing and stuff like

that but like it just felt so out of

place and

so prominent in these scenes i really

feel like it changed some of the

meanings

of some of these scenes where like

you're getting this weird

uneasy creepy suspenseful feeling when

that's really

not what i think the scene was about

yeah

but it's possible yeah apparently the

the composer

uh who had done some work on the

exorcist he wasn't the main composer

but um he was into making music without

instruments and so all of this stuff was

just like i've got a rub on this table

and i'm going to tap on this glass and

you know like

they remind me of the mtv movie awards

where they had the whole bit with the

the people that worked on the sound

stage the foley artists yeah

where they were just like doing terrible

terrible fully yard the foley in this

movie was pretty over the top too like

the crunchy like squeaky leather and all

of these scenes like and the jingly

chains were

pretty over the top yeah the whistles

like when they're in the

in the precinct night uh which is

yeah which is the gay club where

everyone's dressed as a cop yeah which

is

kicked out because he's not trusting

yeah well and

because it's like a thing like he's

worried that he's like are you a cop and

like he's like uh oh

uh no no yeah no maybe

uh speaking of if you are it's

entrapment already

yeah speaking of awards we should have

talked about some of the award

nominations

oh i don't know the award nomination it

was nominated for

not one not two but three

razzies oh really the first razzies who

was the first thrassies i didn't know

that yeah the first razzie

so we're gonna get to cover every razzy

uh nominee on this podcast

and and i don't think that uh yes this

is our first

our first because i looked at the list

of the razzies from 1980 uh

and we haven't hit any other movies yet

so what who who got the nominations here

uh so his worst director for william

friedkin i don't think that's fair

already even

worse screenplay uh and

that might be fair just because of how

wrong-headed it is

uh and uh worst picture of the year

worst picture i clearly they didn't see

just tell me what you want

which wasn't even awesome

[Laughter]

it's not even on the list just tell me

what you want um there are some movies

on the list

that i want to see that i'm excited to

see that are on the razzie

okay just read through the best picture

okay uh worst picture you mean or sorry

worst picture

for 1980. where's picture nominees or

winners

so can't stop the music one okay that's

the

the village people movie uh and so

other nominees were cruising the formula

friday the 13th what really the nude

bomb

which that's the the get smart move yeah

i guess

the jazz singer raise the titanic saturn

three

which we'll be reviewing very soon uh

windows

okay and xanadu now windows

it's basically just cruising but with

women william freed ken

obviously directed exorcist uh

french connection and sorcerer which is

basically a remake of which is a fear

um and you've seen that right so what is

the fear

i haven't seen sorcerer i've seen wages

of fear sorcerer is great it also um

isn't there another movie that's like uh

uh

a ride with death or something like that

there was there was an mst 3k episode

of um another movie about

transporting a highly explosive material

um

anyway good stuff al pacino obviously at

this point had done

serpaco dog day afternoon godfather so

it's still early in his career even

though he was 39 at the time

um paul sorvino is captain edelson who

there's a recurring joke that he keeps

calling him captain edelman

um which just makes me think of randy

edelman

who composed the macgyver theme yeah and

also the briscoe county junior theme but

paul sarvino

and this is the olympics theme which is

also the briscoe county junior theme

um yeah paul arenas and a bunch of stuff

good fellows rocketeer

he was kissinger and nixon and he's mira

sarvino's dad

hence the limp is she there's no limp

no lamp no limp uh karen allen is

just wonderful she plays nancy here

the girlfriend um she will be in raiders

she's also in star man and scrooge those

are the three that i think of

uh animal house that's true that was

before this right

yeah yeah but i always go to scrooged

it's always clear

i mean raiders of the lost ark for me

for sure i mean

it's always star man for her right jess

for me when you think of karen allen you

always tell me starman first

no i mean no

we got to see one of the stars of that

movie

star man

did we see star man i feel like we

watched that at the new beverly

we probably did and when i said the

stars of the movie i meant meteor crater

in

arizona oh where they shot the finale of

the film

i was going to say because i did meet

one of the stars of that movie

oh jeff yeah jeff our good friend jeff

yeah that would be referred to by his

first name you helped him book a hotel

room or something right

yeah i took care of his adr and all that

stuff

because he worked on tron uh don

scardino who played ted bailey

the neighbor is a director of a lot of

tv stuff he did 38 episodes of 30 rock

and uh two episodes of kimmy schmidt so

that's fun

um joe spinell who plays uh

the the guy opposite mike starr that's

harassing

the prostitutes that's patrolman d

simone in the movie he was frank zeto

and maniac

which is a kind of similar character um

he plays

josito sure um he plays uh

gazzo and and rocky one and two which i

think is like somebody that people like

make bets through or something like that

i can't remember who the gazzo character

is remember

um he's also a personnel officer and

taxi driver ed o'neill

this is ed o'neill's first feature film

i could not find him

oh he was oh you didn't find him he was

one of the cops that was like at the

restaurant when they

were at the stadium okay i i know the

scene you're talking about i was like

maybe i was looking too hard he

he looks very different yeah when it

first came up i was like is that

is that uh bundy and she was like bundy

who and i was like the septipus and

she's like

bundy the septupus

i was like you know al bundy that he

played hank the septupus

and then she looked it up and it was him

uh james reimar of course was gregory

who

he said before was dexter's father he's

also ajax in the warriors movie which

came out

just before this um william russ the

dad from boy meets world who played the

paul gaines who was what the roommate of

the murderer or

someone else who lived in the dorm room

yeah like a boyfriend or roommate

he didn't they didn't seem like they

were in a relationship they were just

kind of hanging out

yeah hey if you want to go out tonight

let me know yeah

uh but he also played slick goodland and

the right stuff

uh mike starr who we mentioned before

was the gas man and dumb and dumber

you recognized from the live-action

portions of james and the giant peach

yes that is where my brain went which i

didn't even remember that there were any

he was like the police officer he was he

was in the natural

robert redford sure and then edward is

another big one yeah

where he's like the guy who's just like

i have all this footage of like

stampedes and like nature it's like what

are you gonna do with this and he's like

i can use it in my movies i could i

could make a whole movie out of all your

stock footage

um and miller's crossing obviously he's

great in that powers booth as the hanky

salesman

um he was uh curly bill brocious in

tombstone

um he plays gideon malik a a member of

the world security council

in avengers which is i think our second

marvel cinematic universe character

i don't think i knew who he was until

dad would like i i don't think i knew

any of his work until he was said he was

psy yeah

um but with sin city before deadwood or

during after

um i don't know because i didn't watch

it when it was on

i think it was after i think it was

during

um but obviously his best role

inarguably yes best role of all time

is colonel jim faith in mcgrouper

because that's just the best thing he's

ever done and i mean that in the nicest

possible way

because that is my favorite movie he had

a sense of humor about it he

he he plays it so perfectly

um he's wonderful

um up or down what do you think is this

a watch you know

i think that it's not i would

agree i say that it's not i i think that

if they

paid the same attention to detail

to the actual story of the killings

that they did to all the procedural

investigation

yeah that it would have gone a long way

but just making up the story of like

oh i bet he just was mad at his dad and

his

dad's ghost told him to kill people is

like a weirdly

oversimplified way to wrap the story up

yeah i think that they just didn't

they just didn't make it

i don't i don't want to say they should

have made it more obvious but i think

that it just was

it was so ambiguous that it felt like

they didn't know what they were doing

yeah what do you think richard uh it's

gonna be a no

no uh similar reasons

i i just wasn't wasn't compelled by

anything about this movie

uh like i said i had to i texted you i

said can i watch it again because i

something's wrong i missed something and

i don't know what it was and it turns

out no i didn't miss anything

they just left it out it was just

confusing yeah and i think they left it

out

to try and avoid being controversial but

it's to the detriment of the film yeah

in the long run um

where does this land on your letterbox

list

yeah so surprisingly

even though i say it's a

no-go on the watching it again um

i think i put it ah this is hard so i'm

putting it somewhere around

american gigolo i'm just debating

whether or not

above or below it and i think

i think i put it above it i think i

liked it better than american gigolo

which means it's below the fog and above

american gigolo for me

all right what about you uh i'm going to

be breaking away

from my tradition of always going with

what jesse tells me to do

beforehand i'm going to be putting this

a little lower

um between uh below simon

but above to all good night

okay i i'm doing milo jessie had

responded about

earlier about how she's doing her list

i'm doing my list about

like am i likely to watch these movies

again

which one would i rather watch again if

i had to choose

that's why caligula is at the bottom of

the top exactly

that's how i'm doing mine but i much

rather watch simon

again over this movie yeah and so and

i'd much rather watch this movie over to

all good nights i think my

my list is going in order of okay

since the top of my list right now is

the fog i would say that's the

if you haven't seen any of these movies

watch the fog first

if you have all these movies to choose

from this is the order you should be

watching them in if you have to watch

just these movies

um and following that i put cruising

uh like you said below simon and above

to all a good night but for me there's

two movies in between those

um and it goes right in the middle um

just below american gigolo

but above hero at large for me

so technically mine uh sorry i missed i

missed a

film on here mine is between hero at

large and american gigolo so

okay so i would rather watch this again

than america gigolo but i would rather

watch

here at large than this okay that's fair

yeah which i think like it's interesting

because your list is more

like geared towards like your

recommendations to somebody else and my

list is absolutely like

you're personal how how do i feel about

this movie and

i base that on if i'd want to watch it

again sure

my list is kind of that too

i mean the in this i think the the order

that i would recommend to them to other

people is pretty close to the order that

i would watch them in myself um

i think that's about it for this one if

you guys have any thoughts you'd like to

share we are vintagevideopod on twitter

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vintage video podcast thank you so much

for listening and i hope you'll join us

next time

when we will be discussing mad max or as

wikipedia describes it a tale of

societal collapse murder and revenge set

in future australia

in which an unhinged policeman becomes

embroiled

in a violent feud with a savage

motorcycle gang so another cop movie

not really though we leave you now with

the trailer for mad max

tomorrow in a world gone man

the only law will be a renegade squad of

suicidal cops

he's my prisoner and he's not walking

out that door

and the open road will be controlled by

gangs of glory rotors

[Music]

max is a cop one of the best words

[Music]

yeah no mad trash well

i'll add it to my thread collection

[Applause]

[Music]

one of the most sadistic anything i

say anything you say what a wonderful

philosophy you have

take him away i want my baby

you've not got a sense of humor please

don't hurt my baby

you've got a pretty face though

both want the other dead

[Music]

but only one can have his way

mad max

you don't want to make max mad

because when max gets mad

he gets even american international

presents

mad max the maximum force of the future